Should concealed carry exist?

[keyser28146]

Yes.

Stop hijacking my GD gun preference thread and post your arguments here please.

[keyser28146]

So Washington DC had an outright ban on all handgun ownership for over 25 years. Should have an extremely low violent crime rate, huh?

Bullshit. The MAIN reason you call 911 FOR POLICE is because you are in deep shit... usually there is violence involved.

You are taught in CCW class how to handle a weapon properly and psychologically.

You NEVER let anyone know you have it, period, since they can see you as a threat or as a target to rob.

You NEVER pull the weapon unless you intend to shoot because either yours or someone else's life is in immediate danger.

You NEVER consume alcohol when carrying, neither do you go into bars, anywhere that charges admission, education facilities, or anywhere it's posted.

You MUST disclose immediately when approached by a police officer that you are carrying.

You NEVER show the weapon, period, even if to intimidate a wouldbe attacker... doing so may immediate escalate the situation, OR cause another CCW carrier to shoot you to protect the wouldbe attacker.

You NEVER shoot anyone fleeing.

You ALWAYS look for a way out of the situation. The weapon is a last resort.


It's stupid to assume the reason people want a CCW is to be a hero. I've been in really shitty situations in my job. I've had friends robbed at gunpoint... but I guess illegally buying a weapon and using it to rob people is cool, just don't do it legally.

[racestar85]

I was never really around guns growing or ever have felt I needed one for protection. I don't hunt not that I don't beieve in killing wildlife just it's really early in the morning and really cold and I don't wanna go lol (Ron white line). But the way I believe, just because I don't feel the need to carry weapon does not mean nobody else should. What really grips my ass is people that think everyone should or should not do something because it's they feel about. Everyone has equal rights to do what they wish, and what I believe should not affect what others do.

[mrpappy2u]

The Second Amendment reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” I do not own a gun, I do not like to kill living animals, But MY CHOICE , I do love shooting guns , Blow the shit outta a watermelon with a shotgun , THIS IS AMERICA again MY CHOICE.

[Rommel]

I have pretty much the exact opinion as racestar.

I live in one of the most violent cities in the world (Tijuana, Mexico). Even though violent crime is at an all time high, I've never felt the need to own a gun or keep one for protection even when some of my friends have been kidnapped or shot. Luckily, I've never been assaulted, but even if I were, I fear that having some kind of weapon would only make the nervous criminal more likely to kill you.

I'm all for the right to bear arms and I wish we had that in Mexico, but I don't need one. In my opinion, they just give a false sense of security and are prone to accidents in the home.

I'd rather shoot some paintball or frag noobs in a video game, thank you very much.

By the way, guns should be allowed in planes too, but I bet many of you would draw a distinction there.

[cmj75]

Sorry Keyser for hijacking your post you gun wielding crazy..:p

here is my post from that thread...it relates the 2nd amendment argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser28146

Im the "wild west", lots of people carried guns. People were polite. The crime rates were extremely low. Shootings were such big news that a single shooting or shootout was enough to propel the names of everyone involved to instant celebrity/legend status. Now no one carries and you have to kill 6 people to even make the front page in a local paper.

That is an ahistorical argument that can't be used and your historical info is an assumption. If you want modern "wild west" examples that are a better comparison you must use certain urban areas in the U.S., and foreign countries such as Afghanistan. And those examples have a whole host of socio-economic, ethnic, and cultural complexities. If you used them though I think you would find those "societies" to be more "unsafe" then "safe".

I love getting into arguments with you keyser..it is fun. Don't think Jim and I agree on everything cause we are bros so....

1. I personally think the idea of more citizens carrying concelead weapons is just insane. I think from a sociological and psychological perspective it is crazy and unless someone shows me stats to counter, based upon how social interactions work and human psycholgocial forces, the greater incidence of CCW in modern society will only make society more unsafe. Even for the individual possessing the concealed weapon. I have about as much faith that a class on CCW will make people more responsible as I do DMV classes make safer drivers. IMPO the only person who should carry a firearm in our country is police officers. I don't think you can also base arguments on cases like Ft. Hood, VT, and/or columbine since those are abnormal situations.

2. I know this may raise the hackles of many who might read but as it relates to the constitutional side of this argument..... Like all controversies related to the constitution both sides (irrespective of political position) misuse it as a basis to prove their point. How they misuse it is their failure to understand the historical context of the Constitution. This especially relates to the "content" of the constitution. While I would consider myself a "constitutionalist" regarding the systems and processes established within, and basic tenets espoused, when it comes to what was meant by the right to bear arms or any other part of the constitution it has a very historical connotation to it and must be understood that way. Our founding fathers would absolutely roll over in their graves not by what they would see today but by how we see them and the constitution.

[jmhc74]

This is from Keyser's gun post...

Regarding concealed gun laws...then what about the office shooting that happened last week in Orlando. So do you propose that qualified individuals be allowed to carry guns at work. What about the shooting at a LA Fitness outside of Pittsburgh. Do you propose that we should be able to carry a weapon on our hips as we run on the treadmills. These are the scenrios that take place where inoccent people die at the hand of insane people.

I don't see how the ability to carry a concealed weapon would have prevented these incidents. You obviously trust yourself with that weapon...I hope so because when or if you are in that position to use it you better be darn sure that you are doing the right thing because you can't take back that bullet...no matter what the consquences/outcome is!!!

BUT the bigger question is do you trust the person to your right and to your left with the responsiblity of making that split second decision. Allowing qualified people to carry concelead weapons in more places or extending the law just doesn't effect you...it effects everyone. Are you confident in the fact that they were properly trained. Are you confident that they are competent with the firearm. Are you confident that they didn't forget (lets say) to put on their glasses in the morning. These people are complete strangers...are you willing to stake you and your families life on it. Guns are serious...DEAD serious. To many variables can come into play and is it worth it to save an innocent life at the expense of an innocent life.

[RageProphetXIII]

YOu know what though. I grew up where violence is an everyday thing too. But while their ways of flashing guns as a sign of power or intimidation never appealed to me either.....I do see a point.

The point with me is I would like to have a concealed weapons permit...mostly to just have it. I tend to have a way with words that can get people to calm down...but not always.

If I did carry a gun and I thought my life was in danger I would not hesitate to put 2 into someone....If there was no other choice.

I'm very non violence. But Don't provoke me. I do have self control so if I did have someone messing with me and there is no threat I wouldn't pull out my piece.

It's about control and moderation. But some people just don't have any sense.

[Deslock]

But the laws are getting rediculous. The old saying is true, if you take the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, only the government, and criminals, will have guns, and that makes you prey to both.

Making certain weapons "illegal" is pointless. That way you're only keeping the proper weapons out of the hands of those, that obey the law. And people properly obeying the laws in the first place, isn't the problem, it's the criminals. And they don't care about the laws in the first place...Hence why they're criminals.

Ever watch the videos of the weapons that Law Enforcement takes from criminals? the gun laws in place isn't stopping them one bit from getting the guns they want.

Most legal gun owning law abiding people in this country, are not the ones going out and commiting crimes with them.

What I find ironic, is that there are far few fatalities in this country do to fully automatic weapons, than the lowly .22 handgun. Which is perfectly legal.

99% of all killings in this country are due to handguns, not fully automatic weapons, owned by law abiding citizens.

The old west saying is true..."An armed society, is a polite one."

As Keyser said before, notice that you never once read about a "killing spree" in the old west. Hmmmm....;) If so, it ended really bad for those at fault.

[racestar85]

This may be a touch off subject but my belief is that if i get shot and killed by someone that was my day too die, even if guns did not exist that was my day too go. Everyday you wake up breathing is a gift and should be treated like your last, a freak accident could happen or you be a victim of a killing spree. I dont believe that if i had a permit to carry i could prevent the worst from happening as its going to happen anyway. I think that makes since.

[keyser28146]

The big thing in CCW is this:

When is the use of deadly force appropriate and legal?

There are VERY few times you can ever shoot and be justified... you are taught explicitly never to pull out a weapon unless you were using to shoot someone. The only time THAT is legal is when there is an immediate threat of serious injury or death (or sexual assault for women), or when someone else is faced with that. Even then there are a lot of issues to be concerned with.

Deadly force can't be applied to a fleeing criminal, someone in your home, someone who surrenders, or anyone whom you instigated contact with. You can't use it if you are attacked with fists, being chased, or being robbed... not even carjacked, or having a car stolen out of your yard or when a bunch of trespassers start tearing boards off your house.

Getting into a gunfight is not the goal. Awareness to avoid situations is the goal. Having a firearm and going through the training required to carry would make society much more safe... and DOES make it safer and reduce crime rates everywhere CC laws are introduced. Think about it: if EVERY person carried concealed, or say 2 out of 3 did, how many times would a violent criminal rob before having his crime spree ended.

As far as abnormal incidents at VT/Ft Hood. Seriously? It's always some sick asshole blasting up areas WITH HANDGUN RESTRICTIONS. That's the NORM. They don't go into areas where people carry. Time after time when these things happen, it's always somewhere with handgun restrictions... a health club, a school, a government property. What happens when they do it somewhere else?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html That's what happens. Yeah. If I'm at a church with 7,000 other people and a guy comes in with automatic weapons and several thousand rounds of ammo... I'm hoping someone has a gun, BESIDES THE GUY COMING TO KILL EVERYONE. Again. You don't EVER want to have to use it... but you don't ever want to have to use a fire extinguisher either.

Here's a quick one for crime rates:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.htm

I'm pretty sure most states started allow CCW in the early to mid 90's. I know in NC it started in 1995... it's not a panacea, but it helps... as far as children go, guns are around 13 times safer than swimming pools, and a lot of that data is skewed anyway... News agencies take a lot of that data off of "insurance roles" instead of police accident reports... meaning "children" are defined as someone under 25. And a LOT of violent criminals are 18-25 in urban areas.

[Rommel]

This may be a touch off subject but my belief is that if i get shot and killed by someone that was my day too die, even if guns did not exist that was my day too go. Everyday you wake up breathing is a gift and should be treated like your last, a freak accident could happen or you be a victim of a killing spree. I dont believe that if i had a permit to carry i could prevent the worst from happening as its going to happen anyway. I think that makes since.

Exactly. When it's your time to go, it's over. I'm not a statistician, but aren't you way more likely to get hit by a car and die than to get shot, let alone die by getting shot?

Like I said, guns just give you a false sense of security in your everyday life, but overall it's important to give citizens the tools to fight oppression from both Government and criminals. Whether those tools are guns is what is debatable. My personal faith tells me that I should never buy a gun, but I respect those who feel it necessary.

Still, I would like to hear from any research on the psychology of owning a gun because I bet people feel really powerful when they know they have the power to end a life with a pull of a trigger. I believe that while guns should be legal, most people that do own guns carry them only because of that feeling of power that they get from simply knowing they have one. That to me says that gun-owners have something lacking in their lives if they constantly feel the need to gain power over others. Of course, if that need for power comes from daily threat, then it's understandable.

Good topic keyser.

[EagleOne]

Well Keyser, In Texas you can shoot anyone who breaks into your home, you the right to use deadly force to protect yourself and your possesions. It is the biggest thing in Texas to carry a concealed weapon. I know alot of people that carry in the cars.

The only thing that you can't do is shoot someone in the back. But most Texans understand the shoot to kill, there aren't second chances, these people will kill. So be careful when in Texas because everyone carries and they are just asking to be messed with lol.

Me, I don't own a gun, I am trying to change that image of my people but I do carry a might fine dagger lol

[keyser28146]

In NC, you CANNOT shoot to protect possessions or property.

The exception is "Castle Doctrine" which means that if someone is breaking in, you can shoot them breaking in. Even then, it is advisable to warn first. HOWEVER, once they break in, you can no longer shoot them unless your life is in danger or unless they appear to have the intent to assault with felonious or murderous intent or to commit sexual assault. The reason castle doctrine is ok is because you are supposed to retreat if at all possible, but since you at HOME, there is nowhere to retreat TO.

As far as feeling powerful, not so much. If you are in a situation to have to use your concealed weapon, you are STILL at a disadvantage:

-The bad guy has planned the event, you are reacting.
-The bad guy more than likely has a partner (60% chance), you will likely be alone.
-The bad more than likely has you outgunned (you have a pistol, more than likely they have something bigger)
-More than likely, the bad guy has some amount of training.
-The bad guy doesn't care about the law. You must be SURE you manage your weapon in a way that any witness will help you and only use it in a legal way, and even then that is no guarantee from legal trouble.
-If you DO have the set of circumstances available to use you weapon, you must THEN insure you do not use it EXCESSIVELY.
-No matter how justified and correct the usage is, even if you aren't prosecuted, there WILL be an investigation, and more than likely, the victim and/or his family will sue you civilly.
-You have to deal with the psychological impact of shooting someone.

Bottom Line: It sucks. But. In a situation where you otherwise would be dead, you have a chance to survive.

[k1gibson]

Not being able to protect your possessions that are in your home or on your propety,I think is crazy(bullshit)
I do have a couple of guns .22 handgun and a .243 that I inherited but before then no I didn't have one and wasn't looking to buy one. But now I'm older yes I'm glad I have them now.I'm not well educated person but I did graduate.
So the things I have on my 2 acre, I worked very dam hard to have.
I be dam If I going to sit back and let some worthless mother fucker come in or on my property and start taking shit or tearing shit up.
And if takes a gun to stop so be it, because if a theres been a black out or something that has shut down my city,state or country.
I will have to protect myself,family and my stuff because there no city or state police that going to watch my stuff!! 24/7
I'm not important enough.
So for the young people out there thats trying to make a living and have stuff!
and provide for your family you got something to think about.
How can I protect my stuff/family and plus feed a family when nobody else will or can.